SHODAN'S POST ON 'WHOSE SEED CHRIST IS' @ carm.org

 Originally Posted by forever4truth 

From Albert Barnes Notes on the New Testament:

I am the root. Not the root in the sense that David sprang from him, as a tree does from a root, but in the sense that he was the "root-shoot" of David, or that he himself sprang from him, as a sprout starts up from a decayed and fallen tree--as of the oak, the willow, the chesnut, etc. See Barnes "Isaiah 11:1". The meaning then is, not that he was the ancestor of David, or that David sprang from him, but that he was the offspring of David, according to the promise in the Scripture, that the Messiah should be descended from him. No argument then, can be derived from this passage in proof of the pre-existence, or the divinity of Christ.

http://classic.studylight.org/com/bn...rse=016#Re22_1

BTW, "root" from the Greek rhiza is defined as follows by Thayers under Rev. 5:5 & 22:16:

2) that which like a root springs from a root, a sprout, shoot

3) metaph. offspring, progeny

http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/...gs=G4491&t=KJV

As far as a hendiadys being in use, do you actually think that when John says "bright and morning star," he is referring to two types of stars or to Jesus just being one star that shines brilliantly?

So if Christ was the seed of David literally(come out from his loins) and David from Adam's how does this qualify Christ to be our savior and how was Christ sinless inspite of coming out from Adam's loins?

The scriptures I could show that Christ was seed of David was by promise and that he came out from God are :

Joh 17:8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.

Joh 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

What do you understand by 'BOSOM'?

Joh 16:27 For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God.

Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Ro 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;

Ga 4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

Ac 2:30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
How is Yehoshua the Son of the Highest if he is the Son of David?

Lu 1:32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:

How is Christ David's Lord if he was seed of David?

Lu 20:44 David therefore calleth him Lord, how is he then his son?

Messenger

Then at what point in time was His flesh created?

Heb 1:5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee?And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

At virgin birth. There was not Eternal Son prior to this. 'This day' shows that it was in 'time' not beyond TIME

Did Christ materialize as mortal flesh?

Yes or else he couldn't have died, could he? You trins state he was God and man so which part of him died, when he died?

Was His flesh then newly created ex-nihilo?

Heb 2:17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

'IN ALL THINGS'

You are asking the same questions over again

Heb 2:14 ¶ Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

I don't know what you mean by ex-nihilo. He was in every way like us 'FLESH AND BLOOD' but yet without sin because he was not seed of Adam but GOD. Do you doubt this?

Does His flesh then contain no human cellular DNA?

Again straw man question. If he was in every way like us then he was completely human/man

Ro 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh

He was in the likeness of sinful flesh not SINFUL FLESH. If he had sinful flesh then he is not qualified to be mankind's SAVIOR because he will have to save himself first.
Instead of asking me questions can you clarify your position and let us know on this forum whether you believe Yehoshua was without sin and how was he born without SIN? Did his seed originate from ADAM?

No Trin that I know of says Jesus was flesh before His human birth. His flesh is from Mary. The Word before His earthly existence is the same one who He was on earth. The Word is part of who God is. And wherever God is, all of God is.

So in which body did he dwell in heaven before he came on earth? There you go, even you believe in the Son of man existing in heaven before his virgin birth. How can he be Son of man without being part of his creation?

I have asked him many times but received only cryptic answers.

I have discussed with you on many occasions and asked you many questions but each time you came back only asking questions and never clarifying your position. Even your answers have been cryptic

Did He then become mortal flesh itself ie bones, muscles and all?

Again you are asking the same question. He was flesh and blood. Yes he had muscles and bones just like US. The only difference is he was the Son of Man by promise not by man's seed/sperm. He did not exist as the Son of man, his virgin birth made him Son of man

Heb 2:14 ¶ Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

Ac 13:22 And when he had removed him, he raised up unto them David to be their king; to whom also he gave testimony, and said, I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after mine own heart, which shall fulfil all my will.
23 Of this man's seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus:

Ro 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;

An analogy for you to understand Levi paid the tithe to Melchizedek whilst he was in the loins of Abraham so whose loins did Christ come from, was it David to whom promise was made that on his throne would the Christ sit forever or was Christ the Incorruptible seed of God which is named as Logos of God?

Re 22:16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

Messenger

WHO DWELLS IN UNAPPROACHABLE LIGHT?

 Originally Posted by adams off ox

you said only the father dwells in unapproachable light, even before the incarnation, i even asked if the holy Spirit dwells in that light and you said NO.

Trinity is derived not from the Bible but from outsource. God is light and is unapproachable. That's why there was a command:

Ge 1:3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.

2Co 4:6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

Heb 1:3 (The Son) Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;


We couldn't approach God (no creature can) in transcendence (dwelling on high, above the heavens) and He wanted the creatures to know Him and see Him face to face in His similitude:

Ps 113:4 The LORD is high above all nations, and his glory above the heavens.
5 Who is like unto the LORD our God, who dwelleth on high, 
6 Who humbleth himself to behold the things that are in heaven, and in the earth!

The humility of God is seen in Christ bowing down the heavens and visiting the lowly man.

God in transcedence (unapproachable light/invisible) was all alone with His own Logos and His own Spirit. Both Logos and Spirit were internal to God until distribution in immanence. The Logos defines/qualifies God. It's God's Logos that was manifested in flesh while God still remained in transcendence. The Logos was God while still remained internal to God. God can't become flesh but can manifest in flesh because God still has to be transcendent. We can have His similitude in immanence but God still remains transcendent. That's what happened in OT when The Angel of His Face appeared to people. It's His similitude in immanence but God still in transcendence. When they saw this similitude, people claimed they saw the LORD. This similitude of the LORD was still internal within the transcendent God. 

In case of Christ, He was totally externalized as The Son in order to adopt us as sons of God. He was made in the likeness of men (Phil 2) - total keno-sis. He was made completely mortal like us to taste death like us. After His ascension, He went back to God (Eph 4:8-10 -on High) and thus not only internal to God as He fills all things as the life giving Spirit but also is externally visible to the creatures (now angels) and one day we shall see Him face to face. No creature can ascend ON HIGH but only Christ who proceeded forth from God (as The Logos of God) and went back to God.

The Identification of Lord Jesus Christ

In my last blog I have shown from the scriptures that God The Father is the only true God and therefore, He can not be one of the persons of Trinity. Bible declares that The Father is a Spirit:



Joh 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. 24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.



He is invisible and no man has seen Him:



Joh 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.



1Ti 1:17 Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.

If God The Father is the only true God then Who is Lord Jesus Christ?
Bible says that God was manifest in the flesh........

1Ti 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Scripture also speaks of Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh:

1Jo 4:2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:

We have learnt that The Father is God a Spirit and we also read scriptures clearly teaching us God was manifested in the flesh /Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. Let's see what it means.

Let's read Heb 9:16-17:

Heb 9:16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. 17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

Heb 9:16 clearly teaches that where a testament(covenant) is, there must also of necessity be the death of 'THE TESTATOR'. Who is The Testator or who made the covenant? The Bible declares that The One Who made the covenant is God Almighty:

Ge 17:1 And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect. 2 And I will make my covenant between me and thee, and will multiply thee exceedingly.

What is this covenant?:

Ge 17:4 As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations. 5 Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee. 6 And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee. 7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.

It was an everlasting covenant to Abraham and his seed. This is explained in the New Testament:

Ga 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

It is an everlasting covenant God made with Abraham, the father of nations. But in order to bring this covenant into effect, The Testator must die. But how can God who is Spirit can die unless He manifests Himself in the flesh? That's what Heb 9:16-17 shows us:

Heb 9:16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. 17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

Notice also what the previous verse 15 teaches us:

Heb 9:15 And for this cause he(Christ) is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

Heb 9:17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth. 18 Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood.

Christ is the Mediator of the New Testament by means of death for the transgressions that were under the First Testament so that the chosen receive the promise of eternal inheritance. Did you get that? Without blood the Testament can not be brought into effect. That's the reason The First Testament was dedicated with the blood of animals shadowing the death of the Testator, who is God Himself:

Heb 9:18 Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood.

Heb 9:19 For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people, 20 Saying, This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you.

The Testator is Almighty God (The Father) Himself because He is The Creator and Redeemer:

Isa 63:16 Doubtless thou art our father, though Abraham be ignorant of us, and Israel acknowledge us not: thou, O LORD, art our father, our redeemer; thy name is from everlasting.

Isa 64:8 But now, O LORD, thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand.

It is this LORD (YHWH), The Father -(Creator and Redeemer) who says that there is no god before Him and no god after Him and that He created all alone:

Isa 44:24 Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;

No god before Him or after Him:

Isa 43:10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isa 44:8 Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.

We have seen that the Father is the Testator and Heb 9:16 teaches us that in order for the Testament to be confirmed there is a need for the death of The Testator. We definitely see that The Testament was made effective by the death of our Lord Jesus Christ which shows us that He is The Testator Himself:

Heb 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance. 16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.

Jesus Christ is the same God who made the Testament in the OT:

Heb 9:17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth. 18 Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood. 19 For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people, 20 Saying, This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you.

This definitely proves that Jesus Christ is same God The Father who was manifested in the flesh.

In Trinitarian economy, God The Father and God The Holy Spirit did not come in the flesh nor die. Only the 2nd person of Trinity came in the flesh and died. This theory is senseless because it means that the 1st and the 3rd person of Trinity weren't Testators. According to Heb 9:16 the Testator has to die. This proves that tri-personal God economy doesn't work.

We saw that there there is only One God The Father throught both OT and NT. We saw that God was manifest in the flesh - in the person of Lord Jesus Christ. Therefore, to those who don't recognize the identity of Jesus Christ here is the rebuke from the Lord Himself:

Joh 8:19 Then said they unto him, Where is thy Father? Jesus answered, Ye neither know me, nor my Father: if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also.

Joh 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

Apostle Thomas recognized Him after His resurrection but not as one of the persons of alleged Trinity:

Joh 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

He was prophesied Son of God:

Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Do you believe in the testimony of scriptures that God is One or you believe in a tri-personal god lie?

Why I no longer believe in the doctrine of Trinity

In no verse of the Bible will anyone find that there are three persons in Godhead. Neither anyone will find 'God The Son' nor 'God The Holy Spirit' as titles for alleged 2nd and 3rd persons of Trinity; whereas, there are numerous scriptures with the title 'God The Father'.

Scriptures in both OT and NT declare that God is The Father and hence we will always find the title for God as 'God The Father'

Proofs that Jehovah is The Father of true Israel of God:

De 32:6 Do ye thus requite the LORD, O foolish people and unwise? is not he thy father that hath bought thee? hath he not made thee, and established thee? (KJV)
De 32:6 To Jehovah do ye act thus, O people foolish and not wise? Is not He thy father--thy possessor? He made thee, and doth establish thee. (YLT)

1Ch 29:10 Wherefore David blessed the LORD before all the congregation: and David said, Blessed be thou, LORD God of Israel our father, for ever and ever.(KJV)
1Ch 29:10 And David blesseth Jehovah before the eyes of all the assembly, and David saith, `Blessed art Thou, Jehovah, God of Israel our father, from age even unto age. (YLT)

Isa 63:16 For Thou art our Father, For Abraham hath not known us, And Israel doth not acknowledge us, Thou, O Jehovah, art our Father, Our redeemer from the age, is Thy name. (YLT)

Isa 64:8 And now, O Jehovah, thou art our Father, We are the clay, and Thou our Framer, And the work of Thy hand--all of us. (YLT)

Mal 2:10 Have we not all one father? hath not one God created us? why do we deal treacherously every man against his brother, by profaning the covenant of our fathers? (KJV)

Christ's own testimony that God The Father is the true God:

Joh 17:1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: 2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him. 3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Apostle Paul's own testimony:

1Co 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

Even Jews during Christ's ministry on earth believed God to be their Father:

Joh 8:41 Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God. 42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

If God is The Father, He just can not be one of the persons of Trinitarian Godhead. If The Father is the only true God (John 17:3) then it is obvious that there is no God beside Him.

Isa 44:24 Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;

The LORD (Jehovah) alone stretched for the heavens and spread abroad the earth. This shows that Jehovah was all alone in creation of heaven and earth. But we just saw the identity of Jehovah:

Isa 64:8 But now, O LORD, thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand.

Mal 2:10 Have we not all one father? hath not one God created us? why do we deal treacherously every man against his brother, by profaning the covenant of our fathers?

It is quite clear that God The Father is the Creator. Scripture interprets scripture. These scriptures prove that the doctrine of Trinity is in error.